RE posting on Wicca: I post on this topic for a simple reason. I'm Wiccan. I would be happy to here from other faiths but the abscence of those posts is not a reason not to talk about mine. Someone was fairly dismissive of wicca as having a history. I admitt that a reasonable person can have some legitimate doubts. Adian Kelly's "Crafting of the Art of Magick" is a persuasive argument for the proposisition that modern wicca is in no manner older than about 60 years. Nonetheless there exists an argument that is not entirely untutored for the religion in fact being older than that. while I am not sure that I fully adopt it or am I sure that it is really important in any ultimate sense, I intend to post a bit of that argument for the rooms consideration. Some pagans get feeling inferior when they discuss this stuff with those from faiths that are genuinely 2000 years old plus or minus [Please note that neither Judaism, Islam, nor christianity has any claim to serious authenticity that is older than 2400 years.] Others from without feel they can dismiss us because we "make it up" [which we do BUT christians engage in a lot of "free style in the practice of their faith too.] Modern wicca traces its roots to Gerald Gardner who "went public" about 1950. Gardner asserted that he had learned the rudiments of the craft from a woman in New Forest, who he referred to as Old Dorothy. He and Doriene Valiente admitted that most of the practice was designed by them and that what was recieved was fairly fractured and rudimentary. Gardner was a serious amateur folklorist. He surely would have been aware of traditional folklore, the Speculations of Margret Murray, Evan Wentz, Sir JAmes Frazer, Cecil Sharp and Geofrey Leland [all of whom had explored the idea of survivals of traditional religion in britan and the latter of whom had published a document titled the Gospel of Witches in the previous century.][This work claims to be information that was given him by a italian witch [strega] and appears to represent a mangled traditional faith.] All of this would lead one to conclude that he would have the ability to construct wicca from whole cloth. The interesting question is how would it be different if his story were true? Adian Kelly's deconstructionist argument is based on the difficulty of defining material tt does not have an abvious source other than what was known. If you condsider that the material was fragmented and that quite a bit was already known in terms of the works of Leland and the collection of traditional folklore, this is not final proof that it is an artifact. The fact that large portions of a faith have found there way into the folklore tradition is not surprising. In fact its what you would expect. I note for comparison that when the Mabinogi was discovered in a monastary in the 18th century. It was also discovered that people in various villiages were telling these stories as folklore with very little variation. [The mabinogi is a series of tales that are written by an 11th century monk that are genarelly accepted to be survivals of earlier celtic myth. Thus the persistence of the tales in the villiages suggest that the druid faith had major elements [Its mythos] that continued to be transmitted as folklore but substanitally unaltered for nearly a 1000 years after Briatin became christain. Thus the folk survial of portions of the wiccan faith are not as stunnign as many would like to assume.] Nobody has ever been able to identify "Old Dorothy" with certainty but, if she existed, she would have taught Gardner in the 1930's If she was in her 50's at the time she certainly could have learned her faith from someone. There is a documented "character" of the late 19th century named George Pickingill, who publically proclaimed himself a hereditary witch. He lived and worked in t same area and certainly could have been either the intiitator of "Old Dorothy". This at least suggests that there is was an faith that pre-dated Gardner [if only by 50 years]. Now in finding tis history it must be remembered that acknowledging yourself to be a witch was illegal in Britain until 1950. and this law was on the books since at least the 1600's [although the death penalty was repealed at some point]. We do know that organized paganism survived actively in Norhtern Europe until quite late, dying last in Iceland [after 1600 is my unchecked recollection] We know that Leland wrote his work on witchcraft survivals about 1850 and though this was found in Italy, it is similar both to Gardner's practice in some respects and is more similar to Pickingill's wicca [what little we know] and that both are similar to the practices of the Two Horned cult that prolifferated acreoss europe in the 13th century. This cult practiced estatic dancing, used a black ritual knife called the "Al Dhammi" [Rhymes with "athame"] had a leader known as the black man [Man in Black?] and a substantial bits of other similarity to wiccan practice. What in turn we know of this cult is b]very limited. Speculation of those who have studied it believe that this was a survival of classical paganism married with bits from middle eastern paganism that was driven out of North Africa with the expansion of Islam. Whatever its origin this faith was practiced widely across europe and caused considerable consernation among the christian church. The church attempted to supress it and it had politcal power on its side. This supression was seen as the same effort as supressing other faiths including islam and judasim. We know that it had late hold outs in the Basgue country and that the apperantly un-coerced confession of the Scottish Isobel Gowdie, speaks of a faith that is similar in many respects. Other British confessions speak of the MAn in Black as a leader of considerable authority. While this is not consistent wiht modern wicca it is consistent with the practices of the Two Horned Cult and early Wicca gave the High Priestess almost total authority over the lives of the coveners. In all events a change in practice does not deprive a religion of its historical base [or all present religions are in big trouble.] BTW, the existence of this cult is very likely the reason that the word - "witch" appears in the King JAmes Bible. The attempt to supress this and other indiginous faiths wa sin "high gear" at the time of the KJV and such would be supported by the the aims of the King [not a trivial idea if you are one of the scholars under Royal retention.] While none of this rises to a level of certainty, There is a reasonalble possibility of a chain of history that goes back to at least 1200 [only about 500 years younger than islam] and then disapears in a world that has mercilously purged refferences of previous faiths. To make a connection to the classical paganism that had held sway for the preceeding 2000 plus years requires nothing less thna a leap of faith. But this leap of faith is not greater than the leap that is required of christians to bleeive that Paul met Jesus on a road to Damascus, or that the gospels were actually written by the apostles [since they were written MANY years after the death of Jesus]. [And of course if these stories aren't true -- then Paul "made it up" too.] I guess I would also like to note another tangent. It has been suggested that the NAtive religons differ from oter neo-pagans because they have less "new material". I think that this is disputable. Christian/western cultural imperialism was very effective against Native culture. I have heard some of the people who are championing native faiths admit that they are reconstructing their faith from the memories of what their grand- parents were told by their grand-parents. Nearly all of the NAtive americans were converted to christianity in the first half of this century and while certain celebrations survive the rich substance has been lost and is being recreated with good faith and serious historical search. While this doesn't make it "inauthentic" Wicca is not "inauthentic" either --especially the traditional branches that reconstruct what was lost with scholarship and the memories of our cultural heritage. Neither are exactly like the older faith, but are true to the spirit. [And again I defy the judeo-christians to demonstrate that they have a better claim than that.] VIDYA: I do not wnat to give a lot of detail buT I have tried love spells on several occasion [each more subtle than the one before] And they have been disasters for which I have paid bils, and bills and bills and. . . I think it was Rose who said that the Goddess drafted the "three-fold law" to warn us about love spells. Whoever it was was right. Be warned if you want to mess with someone else's path -- even a little and even for kind reasons. You will pay. RE "pagan Judaism" I know a little [based on an article in the Green Egg last year and a couple of conversations with the author.] this is a [loose] reconstruction of the semetic religions with a goal of retaining the jewish culture without maintianing the jewish fatih. they refer ti themselves as "jew-witches". Its definitely pagan. BTW that's not so strange. Judaism was clearly a polytheistic religion prior to about 400 BCE with alters to numerous Gods in the Temple of Jerusalem. this a return to a polytheistic hebrew faith certainly has solid historical foundation. From: phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman) Subject: FAQ: Wicca and the occult ---------- 1...What is Wicca? 2...What is its view of christianity 3...How organized is it? 4...Is it in our communities? 5...How is it related to Christianity (is it?) 6...What about satanic rituals (Do they engage in them?) 7...Sex Magick (Does anybody really believe in it?) 8...How do I witness to a 'wiccan'. 9...What sacrificial tools (if any) do they use? 10...Is it okay to experiment with Wicca? What is Wicca? Wicca is a pagan religion that predates judaism by centuries. It primarily focuses on nature and the forces that run nature. There is a primary belief that Magick is just the force which makes everything hang where its supposed to and that manipulating it is natural (indeed they believe that to not manipulate it is unnatural). Wicca sometimes employs the use of a God AND Godess because it shows the balance of nature and not just the male angle of it (although in christianity it is widly recognized that God has both 'male' and 'female' characteristics(warrior,nurturer etc)) The belief in these Gods in more just symbolic than actually believing that they exist as real persons. Imagery is usually everything in this religion and so most rituals in this religion are made bizarre by the exxageration of imagery. What is its view of christianity? Wiccan people are as much into 'their' history as we are to ours. They are not quick to forget the slaughter of hundreds even thousands of pagans and suspected pagans by supposed christians. Although most respect Christ as a man of great teachings (but just a man) few really respect the church of Christ . They see all to clearly the bickering and backstabbing that goes on in supposedly christian sects and to put it mildly think we are idiots at times. It is important to note that it is from such things as sexual assaults by church members, extreme and harsh judgement by christian radicals, and a general misunderstanding of Christ's character arises Wiccans even Satanists (although I strongly hesitate to compare the two). How organized is it? Wicca has always been a 'make it up as you go' religion. Although some covens do actually have time honored values and rituals, Wicca has never been a completely organized religion with a central belief like a bible etc. Wicca organization is further hindered by the fact that most of their peoples were wiped out in the height of their organization . Much in the way of history and rituals was lost (which may make christians happy but is far more harmful to Christ's cause than to theirs). Wiccan covens are on a rise but there is not a great amount of organization just yet although wiccans are pressing very much towards this end. Is it in our communities? In a word YES. I have absolutely no doubt that it is in every neighborhood in america. Dont worry, wiccans are not out to 'take over the world' and most could care less what religion you are ,let alone waste their time with trying to change your mind. The only thing that makes this dangerous is that it is widespread and when someone strays from the church it is an easily found outlet for the frustrations that sometimes builds up in the church. As we all know spiritual death is the real danger on earth. How related is it to Christianity? Much of christian ritual (Christmas, Halloween etc) is taken from pagan roots and made to be christian so that we could attract Wiccans to our church. Mary was taken from a symbol of obedience to our lord and made to be the Christian "Godess". This is not to take any credit away from mary (surely the mother of Jesus would need to be an exceptional servant to fufill Gods will). Christmas for all of its glory to God was taken from a pagan ritual to the Sun (Dec was when the sun was the furthest from the earth and it was believed that a ritual made it come back). Wicca has many other similarities in the worldly sense . Do unto others is equivalent to the threefold law which says "whatever you do unto another will return to you threefold". This might also reflect the sentiment "what you sow you shall reap". Wiccans marvel at the wonder of creation and the value of it in the same way any true christian would. A true wiccan would tend to act in much the same way as a true christian, with love compassion understanding and respect for all the creations brought forth. The main difference (and for christians this must not be minimized) is that wiccans do not believe in sin (as such) and do not believe they need forgiveness other than to the person they wronged. Without this realization even a belief in God will not bring them to the saving grace Jesus has provided for them. This does not make us better than them, indeed we need to die to all pride and act in love, acceptance and prayer BEFORE WE DO ANYTHING. What about Satanic rituals (do they enagage in them?) Wiccans mostly believe that Satan is something a guilty christian thought up as a scapegoat after he had sinned. If Satan does exist he is ,to a wiccan, most probably bad karma returned to them for something they did to someone else. So performing rituals to Satan would be as laughable to them as setting a trap for the tooth fairy would be to us. Wiccans have a lot of rituals that are similar to 'Satanic' rituals because when early satanists began to form actual covens they borrowed rituals from the pagans (who better to borrow rituals from than the very people the christians were trying to fight?). But in respect to sacrifices very few wiccans do these, as it is contrary to their respect for nature to do so. Sex magick (do they really believe in it?) There is a 'fertility' festival called beltain which is annually celebrated. In the days of old, this was basically a massive orgy. Todays witch does not engage in this much at all because of the shaping of their religion by christian ideals and the simple fact that being pagan doesnt mean you are any more or less sexual than a christian. Some couples do attempt to gain 'energy' through sex because of the belief that there are only so many ways to bring up your adrenanline level (which they believe increases magick energies), and making love is more enjoyable and possibly less dangerous than some of the alternatives. How do i witness to a Wiccan? You have already taken the first step which is know what you are dealing with. The second is DO NOT try to change a wiccan. The church has tried to change them their whole lives and it is quite possibly the reason they turned to wicca to begin with. They will be VERY sensitive to this. Instead of trying to jam Jesus down their throats just talk. Wiccans are just as eager to share wicca with you as you are to share Jesus with them. You will get a chance to further understand what they believe and will get a chance to share the beliefs you hold. If you do not present everything with "This is the way it is" and present it as "Thats interesting, here is how I see that..." you will be pleasantly surprised at how much they will listen AND you will not be written off as some closed minded moron, FURTHER you will most likely be given more chances to share Jesus un the future. And pray, above all pray. A wiccan could have 1001 bibles and have each version memorized and it wouldnt matter one bit if Jesus wasnt there to bring them to him. This isnt a fight to make them believe as you do this is a chance to let Jesus do his miracle in their life. If Jesus isnt the reason for you talking to them then who cares what religion they are. Sacrificial tools (do they use any?) In short NO. There are some that use them but they are in the minority. There is a ceremonial sword called and ATHAME that is used for drawing lines but if it is ever used to cut organic matter (like for cooking etc) it is considered unfit to be used for such a ritual. Is it okay to experiment with wicca? Whats to experiment with? It is a philosophy not a toy. If you believe in it you do ,if you dont then consider yourself officially not wiccan. The only things you could experiment with is the rituals, and there is a good rule of thumb for this question. If it will take you away from God in any way dont do it. To put it another way (and this may be a bit extreme) if it wont bring you closer to God why are you doing it? A FINAL NOTE: Wiccans use a pentagram as their symbol. The star is right side up which symbolizes the spirit over the flesh (as opposed to the Satanists upside down or inverted star(flesh over the spirit)) No symbol is evil in and of itself and should be treated as such.